How did you get involved with Project Nim? What was your first meeting with Nim like?

I moved to NYC from Rochester, NY to attend NYU, in 1974 (I think...it may have been 1975) and I became involved in Integral Theatre Foundation, founded by Mary Beth Miller and Carol Flemming - both alumni of the 'first class' of National Theatre of the Deaf. Through this group and several related projects, I met and became good friends with Alan Barwiolek  (known as AlB, and later founder of a theatre group [with Charles McKinney] called 'CHALB') who went to the Columbia lab with me for my introduction, which was first through the one-way glass, then in person. This would have been around summer of 1976, so I missed much of the early Nim-raising, as well as the early Columbia stuff.

My first impression of Nim: eyes and clear intelligence were uncanny and spooky! As I was quoted in the Hess book, it was obvious to me that Nim could smell visitors on the other side of the glass. He honed in on the exact location (on his side) where I was standing, and sniffed and touched the glass to try to explore the new person/smell. I think the staff who was working with him then was Bill Tynan, and I noted that the 'signs' (ASL was almost never used with Nim unless a deaf person or skilled ASL interpreter was communicating with him) were choppy, isolated in space (ASL has a flow, and also includes specific facial expressions, mouth movements, location/movement in relation to the body and any objects, and is modified by speed and 'tonality' [smoothness, roughness, etc.] of the movement itself.

Nim clearly loved Bill, and when he did not receive the expected or desired praise, he would ask for a hug. I cracked up at Nim's walk - that loopy and deceptively childlike gait that could change in a second to a focused stride or lope if he saw or heard something he was interested in.

Within a week or so, I became first a volunteer and later a paid 'researcher' with the Project. Much later, I was instructed to note Nim's utterances, and because this was not included in my first several months work with him, many communications were never charted by me.

I liked the others at Delafield, and in general, felt that there was a good rapport with the staff. I continued to be dismayed by the constant bringing on of staff/researchers who had no knowledge of ASL, and the fact that many 'signs' were made up or taken (I believe) from Roger Fouts' Project, which I was told had determined that some handshapes were too difficult for chimps. Most important, those using 'signs' had no understanding of the parts played (in ASL) by movement, gaze, flow and the minor 'stress' given to signs that were not key to a communication. Example: an ASL phrase might literally be signed by movements/signs that indicate "I was in the garage and I saw Nim jumping into the tree, so I ran outside to see what was going on." The movements/action of that statement would be '[with little stress] me there garage notice [more stress] Nim {glance} out there jumping (into) tree...me [moderate stress] go-outside [more stress] see/watch [increased stress] what's up." To someone not familiar with ASL, the glances, the lack of stress/facial expression on some signs and the total lack of awareness that ASL communication includes the path of movement between signs and expressions, the communication would look like "me...see Nim jump...tree...what (something)."  If you don't know a language - any language - you don't know the component of the utterances and you return time and time again to 'looking for your language of fluency' in the unfamiliar language. The staff who never knew ASL did what everyone will do: they taught the language they knew (kind of - how many average college students or researchers have exceptional linguistic skill in their own language ?) in an unfamiliar format, and looked for the language they knew in the communications of both Nim and the deaf researchers.

I think the Columbia Project was well conceived as an idea, but not well implemented in its lack of knowledge of chimps, ASL, the dynamics of language itself (Nom Chompsky aside) and by the youth and overall lack of experience of the staff, including myself.

I taught an ASL class for several weeks (and to be clear: I was not born deaf - I was born probably with hearing loss that became worse as I grew older. In my years between birth and teens, I sang, played piano and French horn, had some skill with flute and guitar, and could hear a good amount of music.  I am 'fluent' in ASL expressively and receptively, but out of any 100 deaf people, I would be in the last 5 - 10 for being 'the most fluent' in ASL. I do have a very good understanding of how communication works - I took French for 4 years and I know some great curses in Spanish and Portuguese - and people who communicate verbally utilize tone, smoothness/harshness, volume, etc. to communicate nuances, and in some cultures, these are supplemented by gestures and expressions. Those who do not routinely use gestures and expressions in daily communications see these as broad, issue-specific and not key to utterances. (Sorry for the blah, blah, blah, as my grandson would say...) The classes had limited outcomes, as despite my explanations and 'warning' that it was critical to keep all communication during class in ASL only (or gesture, if signs were not known) I was told several classes into the series that one and sometimes 2 of the other staff were constantly making jokes and 'interpreting' the signs and expressions I offered for discussion and learning. I had explained that for reasons of respect to deaf instructors, cultural respect and learning, verbal communications during class that could not be accessed by the instructor were the height of rudeness and disrespect...this continued regardless of my friendly and then more strict explanation, so I dropped the class. Most of us don't have to convene a group of people for instruction to invent opportunities to look or feel stupid - life offers more than enough chances for this, right?

In what way did your reading of Nim’s signs differ from those made by others?

Although I never saw other staff's communication notations, I was told by several staff after the Columbia Project had shut down that Herb Terrace told “anyone who would listen” that I elicited more meaningful communication than the other staff. No other deaf staff (that I know of) stayed as long as I did, or lived at Delafield. I think that the hearing staff in general missed meaningful communication/signs because they looked for the same things they expressed: choppy, isolated signs (correct or not) for specific nouns or adjectives that they were familiar with and that corresponded to their (English) language of most familiarity. ASL ha a different syntax, vocabulary, flow and modification system than English. ASL is actually more like Spanish or French in structure - English is one of the few languages in which one can endlessly describe a subject without naming it! Example: I went to the store and bought the most outrageous, beautiful, blue, shiny, sexy...(what am I talking about?)...dress. You cannot do that in most languages: you must first identify the subject before you can describe it. This makes it hard for native English speakers who have never 'immersed' in ASL to ever understand, see or use it correctly.

Chimps use expression, body language, speed, etc. in all of their communications. Many of their expressions do not correspond to human ones (except in those from very primitive societies who are more honest about innate emotions and instincts) and criminals (another of my sideline interests, by the way). Also, in chimp society, females have limited opportunity to express certain things to males, except those males that are very young, very old, or who have been so ostracized and beaten by the other males that they have no status.

These facts aside, chimps are also natural mimics and naturally self-preserving and self-interested: they have every reason in the world to study, copy and utilize human communications that can gain them what they want. This is usually food, access to a location, room, space or even vehicle that they are interested in, sex, or the fascinating tools or other items that they see being used or just available by sight.

I do believe that chimps - to varying degrees, similar as with humans - can and do possess the capacity for meaningful communication and language, which is a separate thing. I believe that the choice of ASL (chimps do not have a larynx or pharynx that facilitates human speech sounds, thus spoken language was ruled out) was and is a good one, but it needs to be taught and 'read' by people who use ASL for daily and official communications, not people who are using a spotty and choppy group of hand gestures and signs that in and of themselves do not comprise a language, but rather a 'communication system', which chimps already have.
 
I talked with Nim numerous times and saw him sign sentences such as "Please you give me over there cup. Water drink me please give me", which translated into English would be "Please give me the cup over there so I can drink the water, please."

The 'language' component, as opposed to the 'communication system' component is the use of correct locatives/indicators/signs that give the communication a flow and consecutive order that is very different than grabbing, pointing or making one gesture for one thing. I suspect that most of the other staff elicited less 'formal' communication because they did not realize that a 'locative' when used in a consecutive stream of communication is in effect "you" or "you over there"; "me" or (that thing) over there, and that they missed some of his attempted signs because 1) they didn't know the sign in the first place, 2) Nim's hand and finger movement limited the signs' 'completeness' in their eyes, so they saw a gesture, or random movement and 3) some of the gestures Nim made when he didn't know a formal sign were just missed completely.

Because the directors and other staff of the Project never knew or understood the components of ASL, they did not have the ability to see, report or assess anything more than the signs/gestures Nim made, which they then saw and reported only as isolated 'words' that did not comprise whole thoughts or 'sentences'. This was a function of their limitation, not Nim's. Because I was working in their program and it was clear that they did not understand ASL, I used the same reporting method they did. If you look at page 143 of Hess' book, someone says, "Deaf people would read Nim’s signs in great detail, they’d say, ‘Nim just told me he was hungry and would like to go inside and have a banana.’ It was amazing. I’d be right there and all I saw was Nim sign a two-word combination – ‘banana’, ‘eat.’” This is exactly what happened when I tried to explain about ASL and things being missed and misreported.

But if Nim never saw ASL being fully used how could he say all these things?

Nim did have ASL users prior to me: Alb and I believe other deaf people were involved. If you go back to what I said about English having an unusual structure in which the subject  can be described before it's named - Nim had many basic signs (correct or not) to indicate objects, needs and emotions. His use of them, similar to human infants and children, ranged from linguistically clear and correct (and also quite simple - I am not saying that Nim was capable of communication on par with a college graduate or anything near to that) to communication that was clear enough (but not grammatical) that his intent could be figured out (often) or unclear enough that his intent was obscure (rare). The issue is whether he used 'language', per se, and in my mind, by using vocabulary, locatives/indicators and (often) correct placement (of namesigns, signs for clothing/food/utensils) in a flow of signs that demonstrated thought process that could be discussed, etc. he was using language.

ASL has a polyglot 'child' that was formerly referred to as 'Pidgin Sign English' or PSE, and which is a sign system that uses primarily ASL signs (and other signs that are more reflected of Signed English - they have initialized handshapes that are not truly ASL) in a format that is closer to English. While PSE borrows from two languages, and is (to my knowledge) not a formal or complete language of its own, it is linguistic communication, as opposed to random attempts at getting attention. My best guess is that Nim's use of signs were often a combination of ASL and PSE.

I think that it is harder for chimps to repress their typical and innate expressions than it is for them to learn new ones. Years ago, I saw a televised research study of chimps being given the option of a) pointing at 'less' candy, which would result in them actually receiving 'more' candy, or b) pointing at 'more' ca ndy and then receiving less. They were (apparently) unable to suppress their instinct to go for the bigger reward, which is a difference between humans and chimps. I have no idea if this is biological, psychological or just lack of experience (which then brings us back to similarities between chimps and humans.) I think chimps can and do correctly use many human expressions, but they are inhibited by not having the experience or emotion that drives the expression (which I believe happens for most humans, even though expressions are clearly learned behaviors - they are also reflections of culture and life experience) or their own innate/customary drives or habits supersede the human expression that would coincide with the sign. An example would be if an adult or close to adult chimp who was pretty high on the pecking order were challenged or physically jousted by a male (human or chimp) that was historically low on the chain, he would respond with facial expressions that reflected his annoyance and willingness to do harm. (While humans are different and situations are different, humans must control and suppress such expressions when in work environments [with a supervisor], relationships [for peace or gain], etc.) Another example: humans often miss meals or snacks because of work, because of no money, because they have another meal waiting, etc. In general, humans would not allow their mouths to water or adopt a 'begging' expression, as it would be rude, weak and a reflection of no pride. I doubt that a hungry chimp could overcome their natural inclination to express their desire for the food, even if they did successfully repress their innate drive to just take the food (which they might do anyway, if the person/chimp having the food were below them on the pecking order and/or weaker).

What I'm trying to say is that chimps are chimps, not humans, and in teaching, recognizing and reporting actual language, we have to filter out the many other factors of behavior, habit and experience that too often color how communications are seen. People who are not familiar with mid Eastern males – who often stand and talk with their faces only inches away from each other - might assume that these males are gay, are rude, are low in social status, etc. and thus their communications would be received and judged in this context. Chimps have physical, biological, 'cultural' and habitual behaviors and expressions that have been in place for thousands of years (similar to many human cultures that use vastly different modes of behavior and communication from the 'civilized' Western world.) Those from our world who are put in place to assess meaningful communication need to be familiar with all parties and their customary mode in order to teach a new mode (which they are also very familiar with) and only when these qualifications are in place, rack it up against their own standard.

Did communication with Nim feel natural?

Once I became used to Nim's intelligence and physical strength, it felt very natural to communicate with him! He would demand and depend on communication for things he wanted, things he was interested in, things he could hear that I couldn't (he had a love/hate relationship with the train that ran through the area near Delafield - he would hoot when it came close, and when it was at it's closest, he would want to be held or sit on my lap (or another staff) and do this 'humping' movement that seemed to give him some comfort, but at the same time, he was excited).

I spent my first month getting pinched, hit, occasionally bitten and would sometimes arrive back at my NYU dorm with such severe bruises that my roommate was horrified.  During this process, I remember the 'older' staff (Joyce Butler and Bill Tynan) expressing surprise that Nim would respond when I told him to pick up bricks he had taken out of a yard design and put them back, or clean up something he had thrown or spilled. I knew I could not physically control him past a point, but I did learn how to become important to him and how to motivate him to want to do well. This mostly happened through communication and discussion of what was going on, what we would do later, what we did before, etc.

I made it my business to read up on chimps, especially males, as their own system of communicating and receiving information was critical to safety and correct 'reading' of their intent. One thing I felt and still believe is that I was the last female to join to be able to 'manage' Nim physically - he was just getting too old and too strong for the assumed 'motherly' influence of human females. He did usually maintain his good behavior with the females with whom he's already bonded.

There is no question in my mind that Nim and other chimps have the capacity for language. The Project started out trying to immerse an infant chimp in a language base that would become the chimp’s dominant mode of expressing himself. This presumes 1) that linguistic expression would supersede instinctual drives (and I'm not sure if this is possible) and 2) that the chimp would have 'a language base'. Children (deaf and hearing) of adults deaf persons whose primary language of fluency is ASL will utilize ASL as their first language, and often - for many years - their language of most comfort and fluency.

In order for Nim to be able to express himself in a human manner (which seems to be what the Project was looking for, even though they thought and believed they were looking for ‘language’) he would have had to be raised in an environment where ASL was used almost exclusively for all communication purposes. This means routine ASL discussions between other parties (which Nim would watch for context and vocabulary) and discussions with Nim about current events, not just items that he would be tested on.

Nim did not have an ongoing ASL environment, a stable 'family' of humans or the opportunity to see and use communication for everyday exchange of mundane and relevant information, thus he did not learn to 'use language like a human being'. He did learn to use language, and he could and did use it to express himself spontaneously and in response to questions and issues.

To perhaps demonstrate better, I am going to try to go down to the report that was used in "The Greatest Hits of PrimatePoetics" and do the exact same type of translation (lacking the surroundings, situation and facial expressions/movements that would be included more solidly if I were actually doing this now in reality)...let me try [Mary’s additional annotations between {Brackets}]:

Nim: [Looking at a magazine] Toothbrush there, me toothbrush. {See my toothbrush there.}
Mary: Later brush teeth.
Nim: Sleep toothbrush. {At bedtime {is when I brush my teeth} }
Mary: Later ... now sit relax
Nim: [Seeing a picture of a tomato]. There eat. Red me eat. {See that red thing {tomato} - I want to eat it.}
Mary: There more eat! What that? {I'm pointing to pictures of other food.}
Nim: Berry, give me, eat Berry. {That's {picture} a berry, give me that berry {or 'I want a berry like that'} so I can eat it.}
Mary: Good eat. You have berry in house.
Nim: Come ... There. {Come on - let's go there {to the house, where the berries are}}
Mary: What there? [Leads me into the house]
Nim: Give eat there, Mary, Me eat. [At refrigerator]
Mary: What eat?
Nim: Give me berry.

Even before I 'interpret', this is actually clear and highly functional communication on several levels: 1). Nim can understand that a picture represents something he has seen/experienced before, and he can also relate (and tell me about it) to what he did/would do with the pictured item. 2). He can also relate an activity to a time frame and talk about it - brushing his teeth at bedtime 3). He can understand that the sign (by me) for 'house' means the building we he lives in, and that the 'berries in the house' can be accessed by going to the house. 4). He knows that the berries are in the refrigerator and tells me that by leading me there and asking for berries. He correctly used syntax, vocabulary, placement/direction and context - all the key components of (any) language.

It blows my mind that anyone (I'm referring to the Project leaders and staff) can not understand that such communications and knowledge of how communication works is 'language'! I honestly think they used 'signs' in the belief that Nim would somehow produce formal English structure, even though ASL has no signs for many of the 'connectors' that are used in English, such as 'the', 'of', 'to the', etc.: these items are all part of the movement and locatives/indicators of signs. Nim knew many colors and could state them without prompting, but chimps being chimps, he did this best when there was something he wanted under the color (ed) box or hat. I'm not sure that colors in and of themselves are that important to chimps, except when they want or need to recognize something. I could be wrong - it may be that chimps love colors and love to use colors in creating art (I know that Bill Tyler has pictures Nim created, but I have no idea of the use of color was a dynamic.) Perhaps one day someone with little or no creative or artistic talent will hire others who are equally untalented to research this :-)

The above was a pretty typical communication. Sometimes I would talk to him about emotions, and sometimes I would engage in activities that he knew and liked (swinging on the rope, 'fishing' (with his hands) at the pond in front, or using an emery board on my nails, knowing he would want to copy me (his nails needed frequent trimming, and I hated doing that from fear of hurting him. He would use the emery board until he got bored, then let me finish so his nails were not rough.) Other things we did were looking at magazines and books, cleaning, walking around, checking out flowers and trees (Delafield was formerly used for botanical studies - there were numerous beautiful plants and trees. The pond in front had fish, plus huge crayfish that were a brilliant orange-red. One time when looking down the side of the pond (it was formed from cemented stones) Nim's bottom lip drooped too far and a crayfish clipped onto his lip. He stood up, started shaking his head and hooting and while understanding how upset he was, it was also so funny that I was collapsing.

I can't say offhand that I remember his poetic phrases but he often signed to himself and whoever was with him about things he liked or didn't like or wanted or was curious about, such as bugs (chimps put everything in their mouths to experience: in this respect, they are like humans at the age of 6 - 36 months or so: they do not always have experience to know when something is noxious unless it has a very bad smell. Nim would often smush bugs, spiders, etc. and then lick their bodies off the knuckles that he used to kill them. He would sign (with facial expression) repetitively about things that engaged his curiosity or feelings: some foods would engender a facial expression similar to a smile, but not a smile - the expression was more one of 'that's unusual' for foods that were sour or strange. He would do the same with a real smile for foods, people, experiences (jumping, swinging, eating, hugging) that he really liked, and would often sign himself into a frenzy. He assumed that all people he met could sign...

Nim could say the same thing in different ways, especially if he didn't know or remember the sign for something (or someone) or if the person he was communicating with did not sign (at all or well).

I left the Project only because it shut-down: I went to William Lemmon’s chimpfarm in Norman, Oklahoma (rode with 'Jerry', who drove 100mph in the desert, and got us from Riverside to Oklahoma in less than 24 hours straight driving...I flew back in the 6-seater Cessna, and there was a storm so severe that we lost radar and got dumped, lifted, thrown, etc. When we finally stopped for fuel, I asked the pilot 'on scale of 1 - 10, how bad was that?' and he said 'Darlin' that was an 11...' We were all upset because the Primate Institute allowed the lead staff (a former psychiatric patient of long standing) to 'introduce' a cattle prod to Nim (i.e. he shocked him with no warning) so he would know what they used for punishment. When shocked, Nim screamed, hooted and bit the (OK) staff holding his lead. He was then put in solitary, had his canine teeth removed, kept without adequate heat, and got pneumonia, which he almost died from. …This brings back so many memories...I have a box of pictures from when I worked with Nim that I take out once in a while.

With respect to the advanced degrees and educational status of Dr. Terrace, Dr. Belugi, Dr. Pettito and numerous others, sometimes having technical knowledge prohibits the knowledge gained from consumer experience. In order to truly measure and judge function and outcomes, I think the world at large now realizes that professional and 'objective' views often miss the true story, thus there are increasing opportunities for people with practical knowledge and skill to work with researchers to assure that all possible components are included and considered.